I'm really confused now
 

Catch and release is bad - but keeping them is good.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...DSCN0573-1.jpg

Great picture there Skip. The DNR loved you pics last year. I hope they see this one and think about it.

I am totally in agreement with Shawn about not killing the females about to spawn. It has nothing to do with the method of fishing. All legal methods are OK with me. I would rather see the very low C & R mortality this time of year than the intentional killing the females about to spawn. We are not only killing these females but killing the future of our sport.

The Susky flats is very spotty this year with far fewer fish and drastically fewer large fish. Most of the boats are fishing in the middle of the southern end of the flats catching schoolies. I have an idea when the trophy season is over, those who are honest about it will report there were far fewer fish.

BTW, I am not arguing with anyone about my above statement. Arguing on the internet is like arguing in an insane asylum. Even if you win, what have you really gained?

Blast away.

I was confused about the same thing this past weekend Skip when i found similiar looking "stuff" inside the rockfish I was cleaning... And yet I'm the one who's wrong for catch and releasing them..weird...
Oh, BTW, I never did catch up with that school of 40's that were laughing at me :rolleyes:

Wow, that is a shame to see. Let me preface this by saying, I am not controversial, or trying to be so, but if you are concerned about roe in the females, why are you keeping them? Why not C&R through the season and save the keeping until summer? I am very new to these websites, so forgive my ignorance!

You have said numerous times, that you don't keep Striped Bass, so your opinions are biased against catch and keep.

BTW, I am not arguing with anyone about my above post. Arguing on the internet is like arguing in an insane asylum. Even if you win, what have you really gained?

There's a rather long history behind Skip's posting. In a nutshell, there were restrictions put in place on C&R so that C&K could be strong while at the same time increasing the commercial quotas. Absolutely zero logic/science behind the C&R restrictions.

No commercial quotas were increased. As a matter of fact, Maryland's was decreased 6 percent for 2010.

Decisions decisions......

Bake, fry or grill....

It is true I no longer keep any striped bass personally for myself or neighbors, etc.. Most of my buds do not either, however, I do occasionally take guys who want to keep their two fish later in the year and I let them do it on my boat. I have nothing against killing a few fish to eat, but do not think we should be intentionally killing roe laden females ready to spawn. I think that is very short sighted. It is like eating the seed corn.

The above statement is a clarification of my position. I am still not going to argue about the wisdom of killing pre-spawn females. Some think it is fine and others do not. As the larger fish get scarcer, a few more guys will come down on the side of preserving the breeding stock. Other guys will never see it.

Not officially, no. But the ASMFC has a proposal on the table to increase them in coastal waters under it's cog.

See Addendum II (section 6 of link).

http://www.asmfc.org/meetings/spring...ementBoard.pdf

From what I am reading about the flats and the poor fishing in the main stem of the bay it reminds me of what happened prior to the moratorium. I remember how the charter captains were bitching about the bluefish killing the rockfish and how tough it was to find any good size rock. My old friends down on the eastern shore tell me the fish are not there this spring.

According to the article in the most recent SWS, the commercial take has increased 30% to a total take of harvest and discards of 51% in the last 3 years, while the recreational take has decreased that amount, but ASMFC voted across geographic lines to increase the commercial quota. Is their data wrong? If so you probably could write a great letter to the editor correcting them...

This year there was a unique set of circumstances that really affected the fishing. We had the early heatwave that spiked the temps in the spawning waters and then a full moon in late march. That sent the fish up into the rivers weeks ahead of a typical schedule. By the time the season opened, the 1st group was on the way out and well south while the second group started staging. I ran into the perfect storm last week where these two groups met in the bay and I experienced the most phenomenal bite I ever had. If you motor around the spawning rivers you'll see them on the fish finder. They're here, just not in the main stem.

One more thing. Fishing high in the column hasn't produced exceptionally well this year for me. I don't know why but my deeper rods have produced better.

Not killing the pre spawn females is a "no brainer" just like leaving the female crabs alone. With the live for today attitude that most people have, that is the reason for much of our problems. Tomorrow is coming sooner than you think..........Gary

I was told commercial gill netters are now allowed twice the nets from last year, is this true?

I have a PDF of a presentation made by the dnr to the stake holders regarding last years trophy season. It is a rather good presentation. If someone wants a copy emailed to them, send me a pm

Here are a few key points to it though:

• The spawn typically lasts until mid June according to DNR.
• However May 16-June 15 typically shows less than 10% of MD's migratory harvest.
• Vast majority of migratory fish harvested in 2009 by far were between 34" and 40" long.

Other dymanics that we know:

• On average between 2002 and 2008, 85% of fish harvested during the spring trophy season are female.
• On average between 2002 and 2008, half of the females harvested during the spring trophy season have not yet spawned or are ‘pre-spawn’. The pre-spawn fraction is variable – ranging from 63% in 2005, to 30% in 2008
• Recreational fishing has a 1 Billion (according to ASA) to 1.3 Billion (according to DNR) dollar socio-economic impact to the Maryland economy
• While the breakdown of the seasons is not known it is estimated that the trophy season has the largest ecomomic impact to recreational fishing. (evidence through this is found in revenue and trips taken by with the charter industry over any given 2 week period - also visably evident through participation)
• Fish harvested through the late fall and winter are also carrying roe
• Coastal winter fishery has and estimated harvest of between 200,000-800,000 fish (fish arent accounted for caught in the EEZ)
• Other states harvest far more striped bass recreationally than Maryland. (in millions of lbs according to NOAA for 2008 - MD at 2.6, NY at 7.0, NJ at 4.7, Mass at 5.5)

Given that our managers are obligated to manage the resource to maximize its benefits, How can we manage for the future while maximizing today. While I certainly do not believe this should fall squarely on the shoulders of Maryland, we may have to address how reductions can be made by us in the future.

Personally, I dont believe in the concept of pre-spawn fish as they all are prespawn. Whether they are harvested off of Mass in the summer or NC in Jan, they are prespawn. Providing enough fish remain in the population to sustain itself, enough will get through for there will be a successful spawn. This includes Maryland. Given the harvest numbers, I am not sure the Maryland trophy season is doing the most damage, especially given the 1 per person creel not matched anywhere.

Should Maryland need to reduce its harvest numbers in order to allow more fish to spawn, I would like to see a no-take slot limit. Given the numbers shown above, I think a slot that targets where most fish are taken may reduce the chances one may keep a fish while still providing for a good opportunity to catch a fish. It is important to note that while I agree catch and release is a great tool in keeping access open, the opportunity to harvest a fish is attractive to many more anglers. This is evident in the participation levels after the trophy season opens. This is why a no-take slot would be beneficial in my opinion. It would greatly reduce the impact of the harvest while still providing for that opporuntity to keep a fish. I actually believe Maryland could extend the season length with an appropriate no take slot to preserve the spawn. This would have the potential to increase the economic benefit to our state from the use of the resource while protecting more for the future. I also think it would help in the catch and release mind-set amoungst anglers who dont full appreciate the sport without keeping a fish. In other words, I think anglers who still have the opportunity to catch and keep a fish would still find themselves enjoying their time on the water if they were able to catch fish in the hunt for a "keeper" or true "trophy". While the no-take slot may affect their opportunity to keep a fish, it has not reduced their opportunity to catch a fish.

I will also disagree that debating on forums is a waste of time. :D While we can poo-poo them all you want, managers are watching and reading. This was very evident to me during the whole preseason catch and release debate. I think forums are great tools to change hearts and minds and make good cases for your causes if you take the time to argue your points well and thoroughly.

They (DNR) increased the amount of net legally allowed for the gill-netters. Not twice the amount. They say it is so the commercial netters could keep different size mesh onboard to better target different size class of fish. However nothing in the law stops them form deploying all of the gill nets on a licensed vessel. There quota has not changed they are still allowed the same poundage of fish. If the commercials reach there quota early DNR shuts the fishery down. A few from this site were at the meetings and may have a better detailed explanation of the reasoning.

Thanks Fish Nut.
IMHO B Faithful has a good idea with slot fish limit, it would allow for fish to be taken while protecting the large spawning cows, on the other hand as you mentioned other states need to come in line with lower limits, that in its self would be a challenge.

I should note that I dont support a slot that has an upper limit as I believe in the preservations of the opportunity for records and tournaments, which are a large draw to recreational fishing too. Large "citation" fish make up a small portion of the migratory fish harvested anyhow. I think a no take slot that would target allow the a higher percentage of spawners through would work. Given that the VAST majority of migratory fish harvested in 2009 (by far) were between 34" and 40" long, a slot that targets that range would be most appropriate. The difficult things managers would have to look at is, what slot would work best at protecting the spawn while still providing for enough opportunity for anglers to harvest a fish. If that opportunity gets too low, interest in the season may dry up losing the economic benefit of the season. It would be a balance left up to the managers and scientists.

Easy fix - C/R until May 15th of fish over 28 inches.
Still can catch that big one - just have to let her go.

But Sir, weren't you the one that just posted the pic of the roe laden female above? I don't see consistency? Fish caught all year are pre spawn in some manner or another. If you feel that way, why keep fish at all until May 15th, lead by example!

Ron, many times it is difficult to determine a prespawn fish before you clean it. Skip, keeps far less than his creel much of the year.

With that said, and with all due respect to Skip, I do not think making it catch and release over 28" until May 15th would foster good participation, especially given the restrictions on efficiency that were passed for catch and release this past spring. Lets face it, participation levels go way up when there is the opportunity to keep a fish....



Ok, I looked at the presentation that I have and here are some other key stats to consider.

2006 Maryland had a 33" min and harvested 63k fish
2007 Maryland had a no-take slot of 35"-40" and harvested 35k fish

The participation (angler trips) levels in 2007 where higher than the 2006 and we still had much lower harvest numbers.

Why? No take slot limit. Also, I think the no-take slot did not deter anglers from fishing. There still was the opportunity to keep a fish, our harvest was greatly reduced over the previous year despite more angler trips and our socio-economic benefit was still realized. I am assuming that the majority of migratory fish fell within that size range given that we reduced the harvest by nearly half despite the increase in angler trips.

I think the no-take slots of 2007 were an effective tool in reducing the impact on the striped bass harvest during our trophy season while also not creating a negative impact on the participation levels. I believe a no-take slot also fosters better catch and release practices by anglers realizing that recreational fish is not soley about the opportunity to keep a fish but the opportunity to catch it with less opporutunity to keep. It also recognizes that the opportunity to catch a fish is a large part of drawing participation and provides for it adequately.

Mr. Faithful, I don't know any of you guys, or who Skip is, so forgive my ignorance. But, that being said, I do know how hard it is to determine if a rock is pre or post spawn. I've been fishing the bay for 40 years. My point to the Mr. Skip was that if you are truly concerned about killing pre-spawn fish, and preaching C&R through May 15th, why are you posting a picture of a fish you kept during the spawn? I understand his point, I am not trying to be controversial, just trying to make a point. I am very new to these message boards, but have gotten a few of these private messages about my post, some telling me thanks for saying what I said and one yelling at me for questioning this Skip fellow. I do not fault anyone for keeping fish, fishing for trophies even though I choose not to. The regulations are in place the way they are and they are determined by people much smarter than myself, so I am ok with people fishing inside of these regulations. I just am against preaching one thing, and doing another. Thank you for your input though, you seem very knowledgeable on this subject. Are you with DNR or another organization?

I greatly appreciate your contributions to the thread and glad you are here for the discussion. Your points are well noted. While I cannot speak for Skip, I believe his point of the photo is to draw attention to the fact that there are prespawn fish being caught and kept while DNR chose to try to reduce effort on catch and release fishermen during the preseason. I had discussed my thoughts on "prespawn" fish previously.

I dont represent any organization. I am recreational angler who is an active member of the MSSA and RFA. I am very passionate about fostering the best fishing opportunities for anglers both today and the future. I believe recreational fishing is a past time that strengthens families and is vital to our society both socially and economically.

Holy crap, what kind of a hen party is this? Fish and follow the rules. If you don't like them run for public office and do something about it. What is the purpose of all this whining?

If you are going to cry over catching a roe-laden female, don't fish in the Spring and definitely don't post a picture of it like it's some tragic accident.

FYI, pan fried fish ovaries are delicious. I tried them when I was "visiting" overseas.

Their data is wrong because no commercial quotas have been increased.

Do they give a source for their data?

Ahhh Rex our good buddy.. where the heck you been? We've missed your deep intellectual insight on every issue brought up on here. Nice to see you're back :cool: I can sleep peacefully now tonight. Oh, when we goin fishin there REXY?

Don't bother Phil. I went with him a few weeks ago. He caught fish but got drunk and puked all over the place. I never knew Zimas could hit a man like that.

Ahhh... he's one of "thooose" kinda guys.. Did he lift his pinky when he was drinking too? :D

Sorry, I don't choose to contribute to the whining sessions, Dr. Phil. Maybe you can have Slayer go over to your place, sit on your lap and discuss how sad you are about the mean fishing guys killing the itty bitty baby fishies.

Yeah, Slayer, I puked because I've never seen two men do what you and your special friend were doing on your boat. I don't think that many Zima bottles should ever be put in that "special place"--as you guys called. I'm sure you know what I'm taking about there, Old Phil.

Wow Mr. Rex, It appears you have some serious anger and homophopic issues.

I would still like to hear from Mr. Skip, I know he is posting, but he has yet to answer this thread. Again, not trying to be confrontational, but Mr. Faithful answered for him, I'd like to hear his answer. This is an issue that hits very close to home to me as I spent years, for numerous organizations, angling (no pun intended fellows) for what Mr. Skip is preaching, but I never then caught and kept a rockfish during the time I was asking for a closure.

Nope, not the slightest idea there Rexy... Sorry.. I'm a fisherman.. I fish, and I eat what I catch/kill... Never once "regreted" or cried over keeping a roe laden female. It's just part of the cost of being able to enjoy a rockfish dinner with my wife. The whole point to this was how people made such a big deal over how C&R kills rock fish and many feel it should be illegal, yet it's "legal" to catch and kill them while they're still spawning. Not saying i'm pro or against either. Just bringing this discussion back to where it was started, and not where your childish mind took with the "zima bottles". :eek:

The ignore button is good for rex and a pair of others on this board:D.........Gary

Ron - you came late to the party so you missed the joke.

Long story short - DNR pushed for limiting C/R fishing in early spring.
Some were worried a fish C/R might not continue to migrate and spawn.

Many voiced their opinions about the slaughter off Va / NC ( 2 big Rock per person ) - poaching - Md kill season opening too early - but DNR did not want to discuss it.

FWIW: That roe fish was caught by a friend - he stopped by and asked me a favor to fillet it. After he left - I gutted her to confirm my suspicion.

It's funny ( not ) how all the vocal guys about C/R being bad are looking the other way on this season being slow / fish still with sea lice and roe.

At least they can not point the finger at the C/R group this time.

Maybe now DNR will address the real issue of too many big Rock being killed.

I push to release any over 40 inches.

It's funny - there is a saying - "a picture says 1,000 words" - in this case, many of you made up what that picture said (i.e., Skip kills pre-spawn fish and shows it on CB). I guess we can make up whatever 1,000 words we want.

Of course, our fishery was apparently managed by making up the 1,000 words that went with a bunch of pictures, so why not here?

Cheers,

bob

Wow, this Skip guy must be some sort of local hero. Between some of the posts and PM's definding his honor, there seems to be a lot of man-love for him. What's deal?

Lotta' "strokin'" goin' on!

:D It's a ploy to get me to put my GPS numbers in my will - naming them
as benefactors.

Someone missed out on some great sarcasm!

As long as you got it, might as well cook up that roe! Almost as good as shad roe!

Hey has anyone noticed how people are making sure to say "We kept a post-spawn female" in their reports on TF? As if they're afraid of lashback. I'll admit I kept a 37" female w/ roe last weekend. Couldn't really tell she was a she, kindof slender, not all bulging in the belly. That's whjy a max size limit would be better than "keep only males".